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aTommyC (July 24, 2008 at 11:07 am)
Right, and if you can't correct behaviour, it's like needing a tool you don't have. Also, punishing (by good/bad/morals definition) behaviour is using the wrong tool for the job. Such dogs don't end up in a shelter if the training goes bad. They're put down for physical damage, or the aggression that their trainers taught them. Most often with no further questions.That's why knowing the psychology, the terminologies, and the dog's qualities is so important. Knowledge often provide balance.
ThorSledgHammer (July 24, 2008 at 8:52 am)
"only positive" is only that, and discounts other aspects of learning and the COGNITIVE abilities...The problem with the "only positive" approach is that the dogs often choose to not do what's asked because they don't think the reward is worth the task. These dogs end up being pushy, dominant and often antisocial aggressive animals.These are the dogs that are turned into animal shelters as being unmanageable when in fact they act the way they do as a result of ineffective dog training.
ThorSledgHammer (July 24, 2008 at 8:49 am)
Other important issues related to the methods of animal training are: operant conditioning, stimulus control, SD (discriminative stimulus), desensitization, chaining, bridge, and the s-delta.
ThorSledgHammer (July 24, 2008 at 8:14 am)
Again, you are confused ...you don't was even close! "These four principles are more or less the foundation of all learning psychology, and any good trainer knows"a) There are three main categories or philosophical frameworks under which learning theories fall: behaviorism, cognitivism, and constructivism.
ThorSledgHammer (July 24, 2008 at 8:13 am)
b) For behaviorism, learning is the acquisition of new behavior through conditioning.There are two types of possible conditioning:1) Classical conditioning, where the behavior becomes a reflex response to stimulus2) Operant conditioning where there is reinforcement of the behavior by a reward or a punishment.c) The 4 principles of OC are Positive Reinforcement, Negative ReinforcementPositive Punishment and Negative Punishment
aTommyC (July 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm)
Besides, a reward does not require being good. A reward requires doing what's wanted. The morals are not involved. Doing what's wanted for a reward is the negotiation part. That's precisely what you do when you go to work and get paid. Punishment is what the judge applies when you steal a car. But the dog does not know what stealing is, neither that stealing is bad. And it's not able to drive the darn thing either... ;)
aTommyC (July 23, 2008 at 12:39 pm)
That's why you shouldn't use the word reward either. You provide a motivator/motivation, to mark and reinforce wanted behaviour. You can remove the motivation to mark and eliminate unwanted behaviour.Also, you can provide a demotivator/demotivation to mark and eliminate unwanted behaviour, and you can remove the demotivation/demotivator to mark and reinforce wanted behaviour.These four principles are more or less the foundation of all learning psychology, and any good trainer knows.
ThorSledgHammer (July 23, 2008 at 12:05 pm)
Here a little of learning psychology...the terms "positive" and "negative" are not used in their popular sense, but rather: "positive" refers to addition, and "negative" refers to subtraction. What is added or subtracted may be either reinforcement or punishment. Hence positive punishment is sometimes a confusing term, as it denotes the addition of punishment (such as spanking or an electric shock), a context that may seem very negative in the lay sense.
ThorSledgHammer (July 23, 2008 at 11:57 am)
nonsense...je,je you are talking of APPLY Positive punishment (also called "Punishment by contingent stimulation") occurs when a behavior (response) is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. So the next by passers have less chances to be scared of the barking.
ThorSledgHammer (July 23, 2008 at 11:26 am)
No, this is irony...Anyway, "reward" requires "being good". "Being good" requires "morals", a perception of right and wrong. Since dog has no perception of right and wrong ("morals"), you can't expect them to understand "being good", neither "reward" for "being good".and you telling to the dog..."good dog!"So then you consider I. Dumbar a bad trainer?I quote..."All training is negotiation," Dunbar says, "whether you're training dogs or spouses." |
